This is crazy! In the news early this morning they were talking with this guy who is an atheist that wants the pledge changed to omitt "under God" or the pledge taken out of public schools or gatherings. What is happening to our country? We are allowing a very small minority of people to dictate what the rest of us can do. This country was founded on the principle of "GOD". The pilgrims came here in search of religous freedom. Why are a few people being allowed to tell the rest of us what we can and cannot do?
A very similar incident took place this past Christmas and during 9/11 right where I live. One man who is of another religion said that Christmas trees and praying at company gatherings offended him, because they are not a part of his religion. He is indian from India. So the huge tree was not permitted in front of the company and they did not pray at the Christmas party. My ? is . If he was offended by all of this and it is not a part of his religion, Why did he attend a CHRISTMAS party???? gagirl

The liberals have twisted the true meaning of 'seperation of church and state'. It saddens me beyond words............

seems as if most people who have common sense do not or will not become involved in politics.This leaves the athiest,ungodly,liberals,who say,think anything is OK.Would be nice if we the people in the USA could regain the principles,morales,and standards that our parents,grandparents,and forefathers had.
tg

Actually, the truth of the matter is that the "under God' part was not a part of the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950s. It was added at that time due to the paranoia of so-called "godless communism".

"Science is the poetry of reality.
--------- Richard Dawkins, Biologist, Ethologist

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sou...ng+fathers+anti

amusing what just a bit of education does....


Our Founding Fathers on Christianity
Anyone who tells you that the Founding Fathers were trying to create a Christian nation is either a liar or parroting what other liars told him. This is what they really had to say about Christianity.

The Faith of our Founding Fathers
By Dean Worbis


No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable
Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our
spiritual selves. What is suprising is when fundamentalist Christians think
the Founding Father's faith had anything to do with the Bible. Without
exception, the faith of our Funding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was
best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke
of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God."

In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, "Among
all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of
religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based
Christianity

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS
By John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

More Jefferson
"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ."

Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."

John Adams
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines
and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion
encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse
than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to
massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not
dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book
(the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and
you will have sins in abundance."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in
pretend imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Finally let's hear from James Madison
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the
exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote "Religion and government will
both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


These Founding Fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having
escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the
people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of
Independence was signed.

Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise
of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The
Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood,
and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they - the Baptists -
who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They
knew you can not have a "one-way-wall" that lets religion into government
but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling
political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it
was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state;
"Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the
Lord's."

In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist
faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual
must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These
usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the
affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should
meddle in the beliefs of individuals.


References The writings of Thomas Jefferson exist in 25 volumes.
The references for this article were found in the book, SIX HISTORIC
AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg (who interviewed many of Lincoln's
associates). Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS,
CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4
volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson).

Theocracies are generally a bad idea no matter the religion they are based on. What I think people see as absurd is a protection written in the Constitution to guard against a theocracy being formed getting twisted into a mandate to abolish religion from government. The writers of the Constitution didn't appear to desire that because they didn't include it. There is no mention of "the separation of Church and State" in the Constitution. What the First Amendment does say is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Please don't mistake me for a religious zealot because that I am not. I don't like people who would force others to their beliefs and I don't like those that seek to impede the practice of religion by others.

By the way, Thomas Paine is credited as having stirred the masses toward independence with the printing of 'Common Sense' but as far as I know he was never involved in the crafting of the Constitution nor did he serve in any political position. He came to America in 1774 at the age of 37 and worked as a journalist. He returned to Europe for commercial pursuits in 1787. He referred to himself as an Englishmen in his 1791 writings about the French Revolution although he had been run out of the country for his anti-monarchy and anti-aristocracy writings. He accepted French citizenship in 1792. Paine returned to America in 1802 at the age of 65 after loosing favor with the French and died in New York on June 8, 1809.


Paul

I think you'll have to provide some evidence that the founding fathers were in favor of allowing any religion into government to support your contention that government and religion were not to remain separate.

Fortunately, the courts have agreed that to allow any government sanctioning of a religion is not constitutional.

If the phrase under consideration was "...one nation, under Allah.." I think the original poster would understand just a bit better why no one religion should be sanctioned.

And if one sanctions all religions, that leads to the ridiculous: "one nation, under Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, Mithras, Horus...." which we see on some government spaces because one religion was allowed a display and then the others wanted a display.

It's best if mythology is left to the private lives of the adherents of such and stays out of government.